Curse

axe · Nov 24, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Kill Count was HARDLY as worse as you guys make it out to be. It didn't have anything to do with RPS, but rather spike vs pressure. That being that pressure was completely useless and that spiking simply was the way to go.

In all fairness you got the best of Killcount during its time with Ritspike which because of kill count made that build really the only build you could run.

3-way was lame because as others said once a team started to get killed, they just got repeatedly killed on their shrine and farmed. But what was WORSE and more lame was....

1v1 Kill Count... this format looks like a pressure build in theory could have a chance, but in practice it cannot, a spike team simply spikes 1 player, scores 1 point and then runs in circles around the entire map. This was probably the WORST draw you could get in HA, way worse than Relic, and cap points. If one of your guys gets killed you /resign

Relics I will agree is pretty dumb in Halls, and LAME if you get ganked.

Cap points, if teams fight over the middle, its OK, but at some point the game gets decided by a team that tries to do something in desperation to try to win.

KotH with no DP is incredibly lame

Basically the lameness of the maps is a side issue, the reason they are there is so that gimmicks will be reduced and less viable builds are available because you have to spec for all the maps. I think the intention was to prevent holding builds like a fortressway team to just sit there and win all night.

Think of an end game situation that would give all 3 teams an equal chance to win, without speccing for a specific mechanic, this would be the ideal solution because more build variety would be good for the game.

In the mean time getting players to come play, still requires an easy point of entry for Casual players, like myself, who if we play its only for 2 hours max, half of which we dont want to spend forming a team, yeas a pug team because that is how casual players play the format and there needs to be more of them.

Lord Mip · Nov 24, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

HA players blaming the system proves why it's dying

*lemming* · Nov 24, 2010, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I can't believe you're all taking Borat's bait by responding to his talking himself up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

The last time i did HA was with a an old guild, that was more of a GVG guild, and HA was more of a kill time practice. That was 2 years ago.

When i would try to pug it, nobody even wanted to hear anything from me because i was not rank 7+, that limited my HA to guild only, and as i said they did not do allot of HA at all.

Before i joined that guild, i was always in PVE guild, that would occasionally pvp. When those guilds would attempt to make an HA party, we would take in anyone that wanted to join if we had a spot to fill, but.... the low ranked "lfg" people were extremely rare at that point already, and, those who were "lfg" were usually rank 7+ who did not want to know anything about our parties, even if we would be rolling the exact build that would be popular at the time.

really, the problem is the rank discrimination.

most of the old school HA PvPers have moved on to other stuff, the game is 6 years old (?) at this point. The Pve people were scared off by rank elitism, and the HAers who stayed continue that tradition not "allowing" newer players (or people newly interested in pvp) to join and get that high rank. They simply dont want to spam for 2-3 hours to get a pitty party taht will most likely quit after 1-2 rounds

So, you're complaining about HA being hard to get into because you never tried to get into it?

Admittedly, it sucks that HA is no longer as accessible for r0 players trying to make the transition from PvE. Still, that doesn't mean that it's impossible - only that you'd need to put actual effort into it. Playing it once or twice in an alliance group isn't going to suffice.

Skye Marin · Nov 25, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

HA isn't popular because no popular multiplayer game has the barriers to entry that HA does. Call of Duty, Team Fortress, and Counter Strike all have the following features to help players play well together:
-ability to jump in / jump out
-short-term and long term game rewards (kill streak vs profile perks)
-scaling match objectives, with tutorials
-ability to switch classes / loadouts on the fly
-ability to form parties for advanced play
-no classes are liabilities

Could you imagine if any of these games required you to somehow form an 8-man party in a giant chat room before you could play? Also, none of these games so heavily rely on a few teammates' skill as much as GW does with monks.

As a magic and swords deathmatch, Guild Wars is a neat distraction, but without serious matchmaking, and extra effort placed into making PvP more approachable for everyone, it was never destined to be what some people here feel it should be.

Screw rank discrimination. That's just a symptom of the real issues of HA being impenetrable on so many other levels.

*lemming* · Nov 25, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

HA isn't popular because no popular multiplayer game has the barriers to entry that HA does. Call of Duty, Team Fortress, and Counter Strike all have the following features to help players play well together:
-ability to jump in / jump out
-short-term and long term game rewards (kill streak vs profile perks)
-scaling match objectives, with tutorials
-ability to switch classes / loadouts on the fly
-ability to form parties for advanced play
-no classes are liabilities

Could you imagine if any of these games required you to somehow form an 8-man party in a giant chat room before you could play? Also, none of these games so heavily rely on a few teammates' skill as much as GW does with monks.

As a magic and swords deathmatch, Guild Wars is a neat distraction, but without serious matchmaking, and extra effort placed into making PvP more approachable for everyone, it was never destined to be what some people here feel it should be.

Screw rank discrimination. That's just a symptom of the real issues of HA being impenetrable on so many other levels.

We're not talking about shooters here, though. Most of those things shouldn't work in GW.

Besides, how do you think people get into competitive FPSes?

Skye Marin · Nov 25, 2010, 04:36 AM // 04:36

They're all action multi-player games where you control one member of a team and positioning is a key element.

Anet knows they have plenty to learn from games like them, which is why they are working to make GW2 PvP a lot more approachable. For example, you'll be able to jump in and out of PvP matches without much scaling. PvP is easiest to handle for most people when it becomes less about winning consecutive long matches, and more about contributing to your team within shorter games.

It's really hard to design a game where you're having fun even when you're losing, but those are the best multi-player experiences around. Those games have that. Guild Wars should've have that too, but GW2 is looking like it definitely will.

*lemming* · Nov 25, 2010, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

They're all action multi-player games where you control one member of a team and positioning is a key element.

Anet knows they have plenty to learn from games like them, which is why they are working to make GW2 PvP a lot more approachable. For example, you'll be able to jump in and out of PvP matches without much scaling. PvP is easiest to handle for most people when it becomes less about winning consecutive long matches, and more about contributing to your team within shorter games.

It's really hard to design a game where you're having fun even when you're losing, but those are the best multi-player experiences around. Those games have that. Guild Wars should've have that too, but GW2 is looking like it definitely will.

Hot-joining and swapping class in-match are terrible ideas in a game where team composition plays a far larger role than in an FPS. Some classes and specs being better than others is perfectly acceptable.

I don't see why you think that GW didn't possess any of the attributes you outlined in the quoted post.

Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons GW's PvP had such a high peak was exactly because it was so different from the alternatives. If it's going to be turned into a variation of DotA, what's the attraction going to be for the PvP enthusiasts?

Missing HB · Nov 25, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Although the example is bad since GW isn't a FPS , Skye Marin is quite right ...
Main idea he's saying is that these games are popular simply because you can click and get an opponent/match ( already said it but , same reason HB/RA were popular...)In fact , the same applies for starcraft 2, you can choose either 1v1 , either 4v4 , etc... .

Point is that in GW , you can hardly win when you get 1 dc/leave ( even when it's not on monk)and you can right now see the effects of inactivity.

@ Lemming about competitive : agree , but people in these games are able to practice when they want to and get better relying on their own . Thus they can find and play with the same players , etc...Except in Hero Battles or Costume Brawl , where can you develop tactics alone ?
However , i know GW is a team-based game , but still , even not considering those formats , but except for players who were able to build a flist a few years ago ( thus now are in GvG ) , it's clearly impossible to do any form of serious PvP....

Acehole2006 · Nov 25, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Now you will have to excuse me if this has already been said before and also excuse everything else that might have already been covered as i dont normally post on Guru.

I understand what pvp players are talking about. Thing is US PvE players can get away with a lose cannon here and there, 1 bad player we can accomplish our task still, 2 bad players even sometimes, Hell even no players and hero-way it which i tend to use alot. Now PvP players i can imagine 1 bad player = Fail.

The problem here is PvP players cant afford a noob "no offence indended to noobs" but because of this it is basically R*+ (example r6+) whatever the team requires. Now as a PvE player if i was to ask for GWAMM players only it would take us time to find a team also... "But".....

PvE is creating more and more experienced players as a FACT, every PvE player that joins the game is building there titles (1 mission even your working on it), Where PvP is not. If you was not there in the begining you aint there.

Now i am a 50/50 GWAMM and considered very highly amongst friends and guildies/allaince within the PvE world, but even i know if i was to travel to HA and try and join a pvp team with fame of 48 i would be there for weeks no matter what my skill is and like i said pve is more forgiving.

Pvp players will find teams harder to create because of this and players do leave the Guild Wars world for time to time. So with experience fading what can u expect.

I Have an answer if its not already been covered...... I personally think HA could be spilt into 2 arena's. 1 for the hardcore and 1 for the Inexperienced.
Example R6+ would go into the hardcore arena and organize a team, meanwhile the new players in other arena can create a team there up to r6 max to learn the basics and gain xp and fame in HA. The first 2 fights can be rigged for r6 below matches before they would be fitting enough to join r6+matches.

This would create alot more players in HA and create alot more r6+players to then join the hardcore arena with some experience in PvP. I would love to learn how to pvp as well as being a pve god, but i know unless something like this happens im not even gonna attempt trying.

Hope you enjoyed the read Ace Loves It.

Essence Snow · Nov 25, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acehole2006

I Have an answer if its not already been covered...... I personally think HA could be spilt into 2 arena's. 1 for the hardcore and 1 for the Inexperienced.
Example R6+ would go into the hardcore arena and organize a team, meanwhile the new players in other arena can create a team there up to r6 max to learn the basics and gain xp and fame in HA. The first 2 fights can be rigged for r6 below matches before they would be fitting enough to join r6+matches.

This would create alot more players in HA and create alot more r6+players to then join the hardcore arena with some experience in PvP. I would love to learn how to pvp as well as being a pve god, but i know unless something like this happens im not even gonna attempt trying.

Hope you enjoyed the read Ace Loves It.

Unfortunately there area few flaws in this.....The r6+ players would simply use alt accounts to farm the lower arena 90% (made up) of the time. Also in both areanas there would be lf r4-5 on the low-end and lf r8+ on the high-end.

While the latter doesn't bother me as much as the former, both would more or less likely exist.

Acehole2006 · Nov 25, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

3 arena it then :P... R3 Below with 2 fights, R6 Below with 1 fight and R6 Above. Even if others use alt accounts it still must pave the way from new crop of players. Also if they did use an atl account at least they can have a farm option and get involved again so sure they would not complain.

Some kind of idea like this to kick start HA for newbies.

Killed u man · Nov 25, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

In all fairness you got the best of Killcount during its time with Ritspike which because of kill count made that build really the only build you could run.

3-way was lame because as others said once a team started to get killed, they just got repeatedly killed on their shrine and farmed. But what was WORSE and more lame was....

1v1 Kill Count... this format looks like a pressure build in theory could have a chance, but in practice it cannot, a spike team simply spikes 1 player, scores 1 point and then runs in circles around the entire map. This was probably the WORST draw you could get in HA, way worse than Relic, and cap points. If one of your guys gets killed you /resign

Relics I will agree is pretty dumb in Halls, and LAME if you get ganked.

Cap points, if teams fight over the middle, its OK, but at some point the game gets decided by a team that tries to do something in desperation to try to win.

KotH with no DP is incredibly lame

Basically the lameness of the maps is a side issue, the reason they are there is so that gimmicks will be reduced and less viable builds are available because you have to spec for all the maps. I think the intention was to prevent holding builds like a fortressway team to just sit there and win all night.

Think of an end game situation that would give all 3 teams an equal chance to win, without speccing for a specific mechanic, this would be the ideal solution because more build variety would be good for the game.

In the mean time getting players to come play, still requires an easy point of entry for Casual players, like myself, who if we play its only for 2 hours max, half of which we dont want to spend forming a team, yeas a pug team because that is how casual players play the format and there needs to be more of them.

I like how you're the only poster in this thread who replies constructivly to my posts. Everyone else is too busy hiding behind a wall of illusions just so dont have to come to terms with obvious realities I've said and explained a million times before on these forums.

Back to Kill Count:

I know it's kinda turning into a "Bring back KC" to "Don't bring it back" discussion, but believe me, I really don't want Kill Count back. It was shit every reason you said it was, however, you're making it sound like it was the format imaginable.

Let me start by making statements such as: "Ritspike dominated, therefore KC is shit" is as much as saying: "Bspike dominated ladder, therefore GvG is shit". There's build imbalancedness and there's format flaws; the 2 should not be confused because that results in what we all know too well as "fixing what isn't broken".

Hyper holding builds have ALWAYS existed, I admit, but the truth is that for 99.9 percent of those builds, the individual skills was the problem more than the format.

For example: From the start of Tombs, IWAY and spiritways managed to hold because warriors were pretty much invincable (ABSOOOORPTIOON) and spirits litteraly were. People just mass blocked ghostlies, abused e-denial or whatnot else. Surely the format lends itself to easy abuse, however it still is always skill imbalancess that force an intire meta through.

So ritspike wasn't a problem with KC, it was a problem that many builds had during those days: skill imbalancedness.

I just said that Kill Count IS inherently flawed, but as long as a build has minor spike capability (or aoe dmg), it should have a shot at winning Kill Count. It's not like ritspike was autowin, I've played it enough. Esp the full rit one (without AoE) would often get "outscored" by a balanced team with spiritual pain (and mad aoe dmg) or splinter weapon farm builds.

The fact that bad teams get farmed by good ones is definatly not ideal, but there's far worse things: A random chance of winning for example *cough relic run cough*.

Quote:

Basically the lameness of the maps is a side issue, the reason they are there is so that gimmicks will be reduced and less viable builds are available because you have to spec for all the maps. I think the intention was to prevent holding builds like a fortressway team to just sit there and win all night.

And the truth is what it did was make regular builds less and less viable and made gimmicks more and more viable because only gimmicks can carry so much utility.

Cap Points and Relic have done nothing but worse for HA. The game became less fun, more random, the community left (alot of people left solely due to these shitformats) compared to 4 years ago.

Builds, bad balance and natural decline have nothing to do with it. The sole fact that you know you'll eventually get ganked in HoH, or come in the "last millisecond cap" scenario makes alot of people decide not to play HA because it simply is not fun.

If it's not fun, people won't play it.

Missing HB · Nov 28, 2010, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Thing is that if they left HA without doing any update on it , no titles , no shit maps , no shit objectives , etc , there would probably still be players here . Actually , this could apply for whole PvP in my opinion....

Not going to say SC2 and WoW are that awesome , but seriously , is an arena where a poison ranger beat any team w/o a heal awesome ??

newbie_of_doom · Dec 02, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Stop complaining about rank discrimination and form your own team.
It is true that higher ranked players have a higher chance of not being a complete retard than unranked players. Therefore, asking for a ranked player is fair.
If you really want to play, just form your own team. And if you mention that high-ranked players should 'tutor' you, you are yourself admitting that this a is fair discrimination.

As for the OP's problem, I have no idea how to fix it. I suppose the problem is not enough people log in anymore. You cannot really blame them though, especially for HA.
I would be in favor of playing with more henchies and preferably even heroes. Also 6v6 HA would be nice. This may result in more teams, but it's hard to predict...

Azazello · Dec 02, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Asking for a ranked player is fair. Complaining about a crisis due to lack of players is fair. Doing both at the same time is just a little bit silly. The solution seems reasonably obvious. Get baddies in your team, or don't play at all.

Oh, and can I just say, I enjoyed the irony of reading 5 pages of complaining about 'people who want handouts' in a thread asking anet to dedicate dev time to fixing a problem for the handful of players that still play HA, who could easily fix it themselves.

Reverend Dr · Dec 02, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Oh, and can I just say, I enjoyed the irony of reading 5 pages of complaining about 'people who want handouts' in a thread asking anet to dedicate dev time to fixing a problem for the handful of players that still play HA, who could easily fix it themselves.

The problem is the format. The format changes and balance issues drove away far more players than anything else.

I would love to fix the format, please tell us HA players how we can fix the format.

Azazello · Dec 03, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The problem is the format. The format changes and balance issues drove away far more players than anything else.

I would love to fix the format, please tell us HA players how we can fix the format.

Dedicating dev time to changing the format in order to cater to the handful of people who still play HA is indeed one way to solve your problem, although I don't think any change that would actually help would be to your liking.

There's another way too.

If HA players first recourse is to run to anet, I don't think the problem will ever be resolved though. The mindset it takes to do that is not one that will ever bother to resolve their own issues, nor is it one that appeals very much to people who can resolve the issues for you. If some effort was made by the players, and it failed, then I can see anet looking at it, since the problem is clearly important enough to at least that small subsection of players for them to try to fix it.

You're basically running into the same wall that GvG is. You want to keep all the barriers to entry in place, but you want more players to enter. As someone else pointed out, no change to the format is bringing any serious number of people back, so you need PvE players in there if you want any players at all in there, like it or not.

Besides, you're really kidding yourself if you think people never quit. Their reasons for quitting might have been this change or that change to the format (which makes me wonder why you think changing the format would help in some way), but the reality is that if the format had stayed the same, other people would have just said 'ok this is stale now, I'm not really that excited about my next emote'. People quit, you need new people to take their place, you keep shutting out the new people, then blame anet for the format dying. See a problem? Everytime someone has come into the thread and said something that would get them playing HA, all the HA players chimed in with why it's a bad idea and will never happen. How serious are you about getting more players? They're right there asking to play. You're not going to automagically get a thousand r12s wanting to join in.

Completely beside the point, but I also think you're kidding yourself if you think any format change drove away more players than rank discrimination. I know back when I wanted to pug HA, it was all 'lf r3+'. I could have formed my own team, but tbh, I didn't care enough about it, that's why I was pugging in the first place. These days I literally wouldn't enter if you paid me, after having some exposure to the minds of HA players. The clash of fragile egos in this thread was particularly amusing, it's always the same, always has been.

'I'm higher ranked!'
'You got your rank with gimmick build X!'
'MY DADDY IS A POLICEMAN!'

The sheer number of people telling their version of the exact same story over the last four years should indicate to you just how many people have been driven away by rank discrimination. Remember the one percent rule. Holding onto the illusions that got you where you currently are, blaming anet, then asking them to fix your problems for you by changing the format yet again won't solve anything.

Honestly, pretend you put thousands of manhours into creating something for people to enjoy. Now pretend some of them deliberately exclude people who haven't already experienced it from doing so, because they haven't experienced it. Say they do this in order to to make it easier for themselves to chase shiny pixels. What would your response be when they came asking you to get more people involved in it? I would outright laugh in their face. After my initial confusion, when I worked out they were serious, I wouldn't be able to help myself. On the other hand, if they had gone out of their way to show new people how awesome my work was, used their initiative and taken steps of their own to get more people involved, but still felt like there was a problem, my response would be completely the opposite, and I would be very receptive.

Keep in mind my entry into the discussion was 'asking for a ranked player is fair'. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to play with baddies. I'm just saying that it's the most obvious fix to your problem. Especially for players who don't pug at all.

Missing HB · Dec 03, 2010, 08:34 AM // 08:34

There are diferent ways of fixing things , but each leads to comments from people who don't understand the point and just say " oh this sucked in 2007 no ty " or w/e :

- fixing inactivity : i know it's not good but at the point of the game , either allowing hench teams either turning back to 6v6 are the ONLY solutions . Better having fights than no fights...

- fixing unfair fights : Adding back killcount . Even considering more teams , every mode is still relying on huge amount of luck . Adding Death Penalties could also be a good point.

Rank discrimination has not much to do with HA atm ( i can take everyone here , anyway there's noone to fight , so what's the point?? ;; i took other people , however , the holding team doesn't and we keep losing ; ....)and it would be nice if people stopped arguing on it .
The few solutions aren't the best yes , but you need to know that these were in place at nightfall release , and thus it wouldn't be same at all if applied now , thus could hardly make it worse than HA is atm....

diabiosx · Dec 03, 2010, 01:57 PM // 13:57

People want to win, thats why rank discrimination is there. Beginners complain about it because they want to win and because they know if they play with people their level, they will not get anywhere. The problem is beginners want to win but GW wont let them due to the high learning curve. The quick fix you talk about will not change that, it will not change the inactivity of HA. There is no difficulty in getting into a group, most beginners just dont want to form r0+ because its a waste of time(will always lose) and not only that, they dont know how to because even with the existence of pvxwiki, they cant get the builds correctly. I went to my 2nd account that was unranked and i was able to form up a BBway in 10minutes.

Skye Marin · Dec 03, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

I agree that no change to the format will bring players back because adding or removing kill count, giving old school halls, making 7-man parties, whatever, won't do anything at making HA more accessible.

For new people to feel they have a chance to win, they need an opportunity to learn all of the maps, builds, and mechanics. That's impossible without either a full-blown tutorial, easier matchmaking, and more experienced players teaching them directly. Any attention Anet would give to HA would be wasted unless all three can be added.

I'd bet that they'd rather add all three (including player tutorial incentives) to GvG much sooner than to HA.